slideyfoot – To me, conflict seems to be the best advertisement as BJJ’s own peoples are tearing at each other despite that its all Gracie…it SHOULD BE “all good”. Support one anothers projects. But, a slight misunderstanding and some training path differences, combined with a tool to project both sides and throw an audience in the mix and you have E drama of the Jiu Jitsu kind! Thats the only successful form of ad I see here. AS for the claims that Rener and Ryron make regarding the effectiveness of the combatives program, wait for the chance for them to have their students display the works!

Paul – You hit it on the head Brah! “36 essential techniques” is hardly the ENTIRE Jiu Jitsu art form and I think people forget that. Its taking the most street applicable techniques and running with it. Not “learn the 600+ techniques in a month with GRACIE COMBATIVES”! Once people see the program for what it is, the confusion will go down.

Bryan – Funny about spam…if you dont like it, click the block, delete or hit the x…all that goes away! Losses in the sport? What basis do you support that opinion on? Honestly…I’m with Cheeba on the sport thing, f it….I’m trying to get it on in the street not the “OcTaGON”. I’m on some old school s…t. No guns, no knife, no cameras, no TAPOUT shorts….just the one on one so we gots to fight son!

Apache – No comment. Behind every person working to make something happen is a group of haters who look to tear down all the efforts.

Foot, your blog was the most fair on this subject!

http://www.slideyfoot.com/2009/08/dvd-review-gracie-combatives-rener.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKZ0pFBUGlM

..nuff said.

I think the proof is in the pudding. If it is so great then get in the octagon. Renzo has legitimate gripes with them. They claim no UFC because it’s not about the paycheck yet they spam these courses all over the internet like a “Shamwow” commercial. C’Mon.

I think losses in the “sport” world have forced this “defensive” stance. It is crap and Renzo has a right to be mad and embarrassed.

However, I also think that the online testing concept is deeply flawed, and I’m dubious about the alleged distinction between ‘self defence’ GJJ and ‘sport’ BJJ. To me, it looks like a marketing ploy, which has apparently been quite successful.

Still, I agree that this is still in its early stages, so it remains to be seen how it pans out. Once the Master Cycle becomes available, I’m hoping that can answer a lot of the criticisms.

As for “testing” the knowledge acquired from the DVD’s, I gladly extend an open invitation to Non Gracie Combative practitioners to come to the Bronx (for people in the NYC, NJ, Conn Area) and get on the mats with any of us Gracie Combatives Practitioners to see if its so different or if it can work…purely a live test invite. Dont worry…all of you Honda Si, BMW, Lexus driving types can be assured that your vehicle will not get jacked or vandalized , we got strong Police presence in my area. I never took Jiu Jitsu before and have a Boxing, Street Fighting Background. I fight to survive and put food on the table, not to do fancy moves to electrify the crowd, so its clear as to what my training path will be. Whats yours?

Thanks for all the work you put into this caleb, dan, bruce

There isn’t anything here that I haven’t heard before. It’s the same old stuff that has been going around for years about the different Gracie factions. Yes the different Gracie factions don’t like each other very much and there’s always been a lot of infighting and backstabbing between the different family members. Mostly it’s just more of a reminder of how much I can’t stand the bickering and politics that go on in the Jiu-Jitsu world.

I remember hearing about “pure Jiu-Jitsu” back in the 90’s when I was studying BJJ in LA. Originally the line was something like “the pure waters of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu” with Helio Gracie of course being the symbolic fountain or source of purity from which Gracie Jiu-Jitsu came from. Rorian has been pushing this idea that Helio is the sole creator and innovator of the art since day one. Relson was just stating the party line in his interview and Renzo was just saying something everyone has known for ages. Don’t forget Renzo used to teach there, it’s where he met his old business partner Craig Kukuk.

This purity idea was also an attitude that would manifest itself within the students over at the Torrance Academy. They thought their Jiu-Jitsu was the only real Jiu-Jitsu as well as the underlying belief that everyone else’s Jiu-Jitsu was a cheap knock off. That attitude of purity also made what was taught at the Torrance Academy very rigid and dogmatic. I know guys were not taught things in the old days like leg locks, foot locks, and ankle holds because Rorian didn’t like them. And yes people used the word “cult” when referring to the Torrance Academy as well.

And lets not forget back then the “purity” line was also meant to be an insult to the other Gracie schools who operated in America back then. Including their cousins the Machados, who ran a nearby school that competed with them. There wasn’t ever anything said publically but Rorian felt the Machados came in and made a living off of teaching Jiu-Jitsu by undercutting his prices.

But back then the majority of insults were mostly directed towards the late Carlson Gracie, his students, and the school he ran up in Hollywood. This was around the time when Vitor Belfort still went by “Victor Gracie” and was calling himself the adopted son of Carlson. Rorian’s camp would love telling anyone who listened that Carlson’s students were poorly trained, bad fundamentally, and were nowhere in the same league as someone from Torrance. Mind you Rorian did ask Carlson to come help train Royce for UFC 2 because Carlson’s style was more suited towards Vale Tudo. That’s why you see Carlson in the Gracie Train back then. And lets not forget that Rorian also used some of Carlson’s students including Murlio Bustamante in his old “Gracie In Action” tapes as well.

In the end it took two well publicized matches to set everyone straight about how good Carlson Gracie’s Jiu-Jitsu was. The first was Mario Sperry’s match against Royler Gracie and the second was Royce Gracie’s infamous match with Wallid Ismail. Not only did Royce and Royler lose to Carlson Gracie students but they both lost to the same move: the clock choke. Royler lost and Mario Sperry became the first guy to make a Gracie tap, while Royce got choked unconscious. Remember this was back in 1998, in the Jiu-Jitsu world it was like someone dropped an A-Bomb.

Here’s the thing, the clock choke was something neither one of those guys even saw coming. Especially Royce. Why? Once again were back that idea of “purity” again. Those guys are in a bubble and instead competing and getting better, they refused to grow and learn and they kept their own students from learning as well.

Though now a days that “purity” line sounds more like an excuse than anything. Though it does sound very much like all they’ve done is take the same old style of Helio’s and repackage it as “Gracie Combatives.”

There is a long history of the Gracie Academy pushing itself as ‘pure’ jiu jitsu, and interestingly enough, that has also been in terms of attacking self defence courses too, specifically Carlson Gracie Jr’s old tape series (though to be fair to Rorion, he did try and address this point on the Gracie University forums).

You can trace the various battles through Rorion’s court case against Carley, Helio’s interview on the old Gracie Jiu Jitsu Advanced tapes, another court case involving Rickson, not to mention the situation with Carlson (perhaps most notably this).

To an extent, any big family is going to get into arguments. It gets much worse when there is money involved, so there has unfortunately been fighting over who has the ‘real’ Gracie jiu jitsu. Gracie University is the latest way for Rorion and his sons to stake their claim, but it is the first time they have actively tried to remove the most essential part of Gracie jiu jitsu’s success: efficacy against fully resisting opponents. As ever, I hope that is rectified by the Master Cycle.

I remember hearing about “pure Jiu-Jitsu” back in the 90′s when I was studying BJJ in LA. Originally the line was something like “the pure waters of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu” with Helio Gracie of course being the symbolic fountain or source of purity from which Gracie Jiu-Jitsu came from. Rorian has been pushing this idea that Helio is the sole creator and innovator of the art since day one. Relson was just stating the party line in his interview and Renzo was just saying something everyone has known for ages. Don’t forget Renzo used to teach there, it’s where he met his old business partner Craig Kukuk.

This purity idea was also an attitude that would manifest itself within the students over at the Torrance Academy. They thought their Jiu-Jitsu was the only real Jiu-Jitsu as well as the underlying belief that everyone else’s Jiu-Jitsu was a cheap knock off. That attitude of purity also made what was taught at the Torrance Academy very rigid and dogmatic. I know guys were not taught things in the old days like leg locks, foot locks, and ankle holds because Rorian didn’t like them. And yes people used the word “cult” when referring to the Torrance Academy as well.

And lets not forget back then the “purity” line was also meant to be an insult to the other Gracie schools who operated in America back then. Including their cousins the Machados, who ran a nearby school that competed with them. There wasn’t ever anything said publically but Rorian felt the Machados came in and made a living off of teaching Jiu-Jitsu by undercutting his prices.

But back then the majority of insults were mostly directed towards the late Carlson Gracie, his students, and the school he ran up in Hollywood. This was around the time when Vitor Belfort still went by “Victor Gracie” and was calling himself the adopted son of Carlson. Rorian’s camp would love telling anyone who listened that Carlson’s students were poorly trained, bad fundamentally, and were nowhere in the same league as someone from Torrance. Mind you Rorian did ask Carlson to come help train Royce for UFC 2 because Carlson’s style was more suited towards Vale Tudo. That’s why you see Carlson in the Gracie Train back then. And lets not forget that Rorian also used some of Carlson’s students including Murlio Bustamante in his old “Gracie In Action” tapes as well.

In the end it took two well publicized matches to set everyone straight about how good Carlson Gracie’s Jiu-Jitsu was. The first was Mario Sperry’s match against Royler Gracie and the second was Royce Gracie’s infamous match with Wallid Ismail. Not only did Royce and Royler lose to Carlson Gracie students but they both lost to the same move: the clock choke. Royler lost and Mario Sperry became the first guy to make a Gracie tap, while Royce got choked unconscious. Remember this was back in 1998, in the Jiu-Jitsu world it was like someone dropped an A-Bomb.

Here’s the thing, the clock choke was something neither one of those guys even saw coming. Especially Royce. Why? Once again were back that idea of “purity” again. Those guys are in a bubble and instead competing and getting better, they refused to grow and learn and they kept their own students from learning as well.

Though now a days that “purity” line sounds more like an excuse than anything. Though it does sound very much like all they’ve done is take the same old style of Helio’s and repackage it as “Gracie Combatives.”

I just wanted to write you and first compliment you on your podcast. Great show, you have created a new fan.

I am a student of the Gracie University and I can tell you that it is an incredible curriculum, superb detail and easy to use, learn and 100% effective.

The Gracie university has taken my ability to defend myself through Jiu Jitsu up by 1000%. It has also allowed me to practice more often and increased my desire to learn and find a school when I have the opportunity. I have also had the opportunity train at a school and I can tell you that the instruction through the university in my opinion is actually superior in the sense that I can stop, rewind, review zoom in and analyze the technique as much as I want and enhance my learning. My motivations for learning Gracie Jiu Jitsu/ Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is for self defense, as of yet I have no desire to compete although I think competing can enhance my technique. That being said, I think Gracie Jiu Jitsu is superior for self defense compared to the way most schools are teaching BJJ now, simply for the way the Gracie academy teaches the core techniques to help you survive and prevail in a real fight first. For example at the sport oriented school I was at, I did not learn how to escape a full mount, where this is the first technique taught in GJJ. This one technique is potentially life saving and I have no idea how long it would have taken me to be first exposed to this technique at the sport school. In my time at the sport school I learned a lot about side mounts and cross collar chokes and arm-bars, maybe a complicated sweep but not the basics.

I would actually recommend that every BJJ player at least go through the core combative course (blue belt) in the GJJ curriculum and continue their sport school. it will only enhance their training and maybe save their life.

Thank you again for having such a great show. I will be sure to continue to tune in….

Respectfully,

Christopher C Wall
Sultan, WA
Semper Fi