#190 Renzo Gracie
November 29, 2009
Renzo Gracie
This week on The FightWorks Podcast we jump on the line with Renzo Gracie. Renzo is not only a black belt in jiu-jitsu (of course), but he is one of the Gracie family with the most mixed martial arts fights out there. As a member of Gracie Barra, Renzo has come on our show to share some of his thoughts about the comments made last week on our show by Relson Gracie. Relson offered some frank opinions about some of the changes he perceives in jiu-jitsu and like most opinions, there are those who believe differently. Renzo is known as the perennial smiling nice guy in the Gracie family but his rebuttals in this week’s show will show an angle of Renzo you probably have not heard before.
In addition to the counterpoints that Renzo states in today’s show, we learn more about the late Rolls Gracie and his role in the early development of what we call Brazilian jiu-jitsu today.
Renzo goes on to confirm that he is indeed returning to mixed martial arts action in the UFC. The date and opponent are not official but he should see action in the octagon in early 2010.
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Gracie Barra students in Southern California.
TRANSCRIPTION OF RENZO GRACIE INTERVIEW
RENZO GRACIE
The FightWorks Podcast: All right family, this is Caleb with the Fightworks Podcast, and we have a very special guest on this week. Last week, we had a couple of big names on our show, and this week is just the same. Right now, on the call, I am joined by Renzo Gracie. Renzo, how are you?
Renzo Gracie: How are you doing my brother, nice talking to you here.
The FightWorks Podcast: We’re great, and we’re happy you’re here. Renzo, we brought you on because there are probably some opinions you have about our conversation with Relson last week.
Renzo Gracie: Yes, yes. Relson is a great guy, I love that guy.
The FightWorks Podcast: Some of the things that Relson said, may have…a few people in Gracie Barra may have strong opinions about some of the things Relson said. Do you want to start, or would you like some examples?
Renzo Gracie: Could you bring that up, because I didn’t have a chance to read the whole thing yet?
The FightWorks Podcast: One of the things that Relson said, that I think some people might find interesting, or maybe controversial, was that – and this is not an exact quote – “Roger Gracie is the only person in Gracie Barra who uses pure Gracie Jiu Jitsu.” I think he is talking about his style of attack with the closed guard, and that sort of thing. Does that help?
Renzo Gracie: Does that make sense to me, is that what you ask? [laughs]
The FightWorks Podcast: Sure, sure.
Renzo Gracie: No, it does not. Now its funny, now that you mention, I had a very strange experience this past week. One of my students, he actually went to California, and he ask me where he should train. I say, “the Gracie Academy,” because that was the closest place to where he was going. I sent him to Rorion’s Academy, the one in Torrance. He goes in, and they told him that he shouldn’t train there, because that place was the “real jiu jitsu place.” It was like they were saying he doesn’t know jiu jitsu, and is learning from a source that doesn’t know how to teach.
You know what happened, my friend: I see a lot of people now, especially my family, saying that. “Oh, I know the real jiu jitsu, you don’t know the real jiu jitsu.” We all learn from the same place, we all develop the same art together, growing up. But for some reason, once they jump in a plane and they move to America they try to sell a product, like the American people are a bunch of fools. Right now, I became American, and I know there are no fools here.
Do they pay for good service? They do. So if you feed them the real technique, if you give them the real sport, and everything like a good product, they will buy it and they don’t care about the price. But don’t try to bullshit them and expect them to accept anything you try to shove down their throat, because this is not the greatest country in the world for no reason. In reality, I see this crap today, “this is the real jiu jitsu”…let me be honest, I see jiu jitsu now turning into Krav Maga. Turn into kung fu! Like they are selling things that will chop your head in half, with a karate chop.
You know, its become a joke. Let me tell you what the real jiu jitsu is: the real jiu jitsu is the one that doesn’t back away from a challenge. It goes at the obstacle and defends its flag. It’s like, if you want to claim that you have the best fighting style, you should be in the UFC kicking some ass. That’s where the best competition is.
So when people call me, saying “this is the real jiu jitsu,” the next thing they are going to say is “I cannot use it, because I could kill you!” [laughs] You know, that’s what I heard my whole life, from those fake martial artists who claim they were better than everybody else. So believe it my friend, I live my whole life watching this and seeing this. We were always against that, and now suddenly one branch of my family is turning into that! It’s claiming that, but doesn’t go on the proving ground to prove it, does not step into the place where he should actually be representing jiu jitsu, to do it.
The only guys that are doing this now, is my team, and actually I’m from Gracie Barra. So if you’re talking bad about Gracie Barra, I was one of the founders. You talk bad about Gracie Barra, you talk bad about me! If you claim that I don’t know jiu jitsu…it’s a joke, you know?
The FightWorks Podcast: I think [laughs] the observation that you made about people claiming their jiu jitsu is the purest, or ‘the’ jiu jitsu, but not coming to demonstrate that against other jiu jitsu, is the important point.
Renzo Gracie: Yes! You have to understand one thing. The champions have the right to talk. The losers have to shut up. If you lost, you should shut your mouth off and walk away. So I don’t see no champions talking [laughs]. That’s the reality. People are selling a product, they become the king of the internet.
The ‘pure jiu jitsu’, it’s doing nothing but selling products on the internet. Again, trying to shove crap in American peoples’ mouths. This is just claiming: go and prove it with acts, my friend! The jiu jitsu was good when nobody else knew any jiu jitsu. Now, everybody knows, so now, only those who are really good shine. If you realise Gracie Barra produce more champions than anybody else, go to the world championship and try to fight in there.
You see, I am one of the guys who have the best game, believe it. If I wanna go compete on the championship level, I would have to dedicate like three or four years of my life to be on the level, of the sharpness, of those kids who are fighting in there. So I cannot question the level, the champions that they are: they are! If you win the world championship, you are legit. Nobody can question that.
Anybody questioning that, it’s because they’re afraid to step in there.
One thing I feel sorry about, is Rorion’s kids. They are very good kids, but their father feeds them nonsense. So, they could be unbelievable fighters, but they are going to end up as mediocre fighters, mediocre people. They are going to go through life as great businessmen. If I was them, I’d be selling self-help books, that’s what they should be doing. There is more money in that, instead of claiming that they are real fighters.
They are far from being real fighters. Far. Believe me. When they created a competition, when my cousin Rorion created a competition and created the rules, so his kids could win, and then tells that his kid is going to win, they couldn’t even win that. Not even the pure jiu jitsu rule that he claims he created, which was nonsense rules. Next thing I see, his kids could win nothing. They were losing to guys on the second tier, like Marc Laimon, he was beating them up. Guys who could not even feature in a world championship! People who could never compete in an Abu Dhabi and do well!
This, you know, it is talk. I don’t like to talk, especially because I do have a sharp tongue, and I’m going to strike everybody who makes no sense to me. Relson is a guy that I love, you have to understand. If he needs a roof tomorrow, he has a place in my house. Exactly like I did with his son, his son was here training with me for a long time, he’s a great kid.
Extremely good heart, very strong mind, could be an unbelievable champion, but he needs the environment for training: that’s the environment I create here in New York. A lot of champions come out of my academy. It’s not without a reason, we train for that, and the same thing at Gracie Barra. So, you can’t question that.
To be honest, if I today was Rorion, I would sign up my kids at Gracie Barra. I would put his kids to train there, so they could reach the top of their potential. Right now, they’re in an environment where they will be nobody, they’re going to be nobody for the rest of their life. Let me tell you one thing, I do believe in a spiritual world, and when you are born with the Gracie name, you have an obligation. You have to fight, you have to teach, and you have to influence people in the right direction.
So, if you start selling crap to people, if you start selling this, then chances are you’re going to fade, you’re going to disappear. You may fool one or two for a little bit, but you cannot fool everybody all the time. That’s the reality, you know.
The FightWorks Podcast: I think one of the complaints that comes from that side is they say modern jiu jitsu competition is too different from the way a real fight happens, and those rules are artificial. So, they don’t want to put their kids in, because they think it’s different from what was intended by people like Hélio Gracie.
Renzo Gracie: No, never. You have to understand, my uncle Hélio was one of the most amazing jiu jitsu fighters I have ever seen. He was responsible for developing a lot of the defence aspect. The fact that he was very weak, physically, but he was able to develop sharpness on the defence.
But, my uncle Hélio never had a chance to meet the Japanese person who actually taught my grandfather. Uncle Hélio never met him, never lay his eyes on Mitsuyo Maeda. So before Uncle Hélio, there was my grandfather Carlos Gracie, there was Jorge Gracie, there was Osvaldo Gracie and there was Gastao Gracie. Those four were fighting before my Uncle Hélio. Uncle Hélio had the chance to represent. Was he an important link on the chain? Yes he was. He was the Einstein, he spent his whole life on the mat, developing and working to make jiu jitsu better. But to claim that he was the creator? He was far from that.
This fight precedes us. We are nothing but messengers of what we receive. My grandfather was the first one, Carlos Gracie was the oldest brother. You know, the only difference, which for some reason my Uncle Hélio forgot, was the brotherly love. You see, if you call my brother Ralph now, and you ask him, who is better, him or me, he is going to tell you, it’s me. If you call me now and ask me, who is better, I will tell you it’s him.
We both know who is better, because we’ve trained together our whole life, but I want to see him in the highest spot. I know he wants to see me that way too. If you ask both of us who is actually better, that came out from my mother’s womb, we would both tell you it was our brother Ryan. This is the difference, between the brotherhood and the love we have for each other, and what my Uncle Hélio and his descendants have.
A lot of times, people only respect the hammer, so let me be honest: I am tired of being the nice guy. I have the fucking hammer in my hand! These people keep talking nonsense and insulting others. So they better be ready to step in there and stand up for their beliefs, because I’m ready to get in there and stand up for everything I believe. I also have a beautiful pair of brass balls to do it. [laughs]
The FightWorks Podcast: Renzo, I want to help clarify things. So, you are saying – for our audience out there – that Carlos Sr was the one who learned from Maeda, and Hélio learned from Carlos…
Renzo Gracie: Yes!
The FightWorks Podcast: …and then it went forward?
Renzo Gracie: Yes! He learned from Carlos and his brothers, Osvaldo, Gastao and Jorge. That’s the reality. He was the youngest one. He would be coming to the academy looking at them teaching jiu jitsu. You want to claim he invented jiu jitsu? If there is anybody who can have that claim, in our family, after my grandfather (my grandfather never claimed it), then it would be Rolls.
Rolls is the one who died in a hang-gliding accident, and he was the guy who actually completely changed jiu jitsu in Brazil. He started training a lot of wrestling, a lot of judo, he started training SAMBO, and he was able to incorporate all that into jiu jitsu. He was the one responsible for all the evolution we have today. He was the pioneer of all that change.
Rickson, as good as he was, Rolls was his teacher. All the new generation, they became that great because they learned from him. Relson was great because he learned from him too. So if someone has that claim, only Rolls could do that, but he was humble enough to understand that he was nothing but part of a link in a huge chain that we hope will last forever. I hope that I will see my son one day representing our sport in the ring.
Guys who don’t step in the ring, but want to claim they have the pure jiu jitsu, they sent my student away. Look at the difference: if one of their students came to my place, and claimed he is from their school, I won’t charge him, he will have the class for free. He will be training with us, and I will be trying to help him, in anyway I can, to improve his jiu jitsu. On the other hand, when my students goes there, he has to put up with an embarrassment like that. Someone claiming that that place is where the pure jiu jitsu is, and the jiu jitsu that he knows doesn’t work. This is a joke! I was laughing, when the guy told me, I was laughing.
That’s the reality. When a blue belt student of mine goes there, he is able to finish the brown belts! So, I really ask you, who has the pure jiu jitsu, who is the real deal? I’m not selling garbage here, I’m selling the reality, the one that I learned. I’m in a very privileged position. If I could go back in time, and be fifteen or sixteen years old again, I wouldn’t do it, because I had the chance to know the first generation, the second generation, the third generation, and for sure, I’ll know the fourth generation of fighters in my family. I will help to build them.
This rarity, I had the chance to see everything, to be in the middle of everything, I can tell you from my heart everything I saw. I know, a lot of people are becoming business orientated and their only thing is to make a buck at the end of the day. Believe it, if that was what my goal, I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing, I’d be working in the financial market. I would have better odds to make it, instead of being in the martial arts business. This business is for those who put their art first. I would leave the rest of my life, without clothes, just wearing my gi and sleeping on the mat, with my wife and my kids living in the academy, and I would not betray everything I believe in and live, up to now.
So I tell you, while everyone would like to go back and be young again, I wouldn’t change my life one bit, because with what I learn and what I’ve seen, I’m happy with my age. I never understood when my father told me, when I was young, that every age would have its beauty. Now I understand. As I mature, the more I understand life, the more I understand every little experience that I had.
Everything that I’ve lived tells me that Gracie Barra – and now the Brazilian jiu jitsu dies out there, it’s lost – Gracie Barra is one of the main ones, because it was one of the initial ones. Gracie Barra, Alliance, and now the Gracie academies that are out there, to represent Brazilian jiu jitsu, they are the real deal.
If you have a guy competing in the world championship, if you have a guy competing in the nationals, on the top high level of athletes, and he’s doing good, that shows how great your schools are. Anyone that tells you otherwise, they’re out of their mind, it makes no sense. They shouldn’t be walking around the giants that I grew up with, you know, rubbing shoulders with them, which made me understand how great this sport is.
Anybody who gave that away, to get money back, only think about money, it’s completely wrong.
The FightWorks Podcast: Renzo, one of the things you said, I want to talk about. You said, if anybody deserves credit for making jiu jitsu what it is today, its Rolls, because he incorporated judo, wrestling, everything else, into something that before was more simple.
Renzo Gracie: Yes, he was responsible for all the innovations. I remember when I learned the triangle choke, at his academy, in Figueiredo Magalhaes 414 in Copacabana. I do remember, I was there! You can’t come to me and claim that you made this, you made that: it’s a joke. I see guys know, they learn a choke here and there, and they claim to create it. One strong example of that is when I show the anaconda choke to Rickson at PRIDE 2, the second PRIDE that I fought, we saw this move together. Seven years, eight years later, people claim they create it.
This all came from the infinite source of knowledge that my family is. Every time we came together, we exchange knowledge, we saw the moves, we saw everything. So for people to claim, like, that “now I have the purest”, they don’t go in the arena to prove it…it’s wrong. Rolls was always willing to be in there and prove how efficient it was. If you ran your mouth too much, he’d show up at the academy to kick your ass. That’s how he has, that’s how we learned, that’s how we grew up.
I had the chance to see all those generations, one after another, how everything was formed. I saw kids becoming men, you know, together with me as I was growing up. I saw guys like Roger. People claim that Roger has the purest jiu jitsu. Let me explain something to you: the only teacher Roger had his whole life was Carlos Gracie Jr, the head coach of Gracie Barra. He was his main teacher. When Roger was a champion, he came training with me here in New York to improve his no gi. My Uncle Carlos sent him over to train here with me, so he could start fighting in MMA.
In reality, everything Roger knows, was learned from Carlos Gracie Jr, the head of Gracie Barra. Believe it. If you want to sign up your kids, one of the best places to do it will be a Gracie Barra academy. So Rorion should actually do that! Especially because they are now like forty-five minutes from the academy. He should go there and sign up his kids, so they can learn what real jiu jitsu is, you know?
The FightWorks Podcast: There is a lot of Gracie Barra out there.
Renzo Gracie: Yes! For sure, he should go look for the closest one and go train there. Let me tell you one thing, I don’t tell you this to make fun, or try to talk down to them. I tell you this so they can read it, and understand they should be doing that!
Without the kids, Gracie Barra back then was too small. So every two or three days of the week, we had only ten guys to train with, when Gracie Barra was created. I was there, I was a kid, me, Ralph and Ryan. Every chance I had, I would go to Rickson’s academy to roll with him, to roll with my cousin Royler, and all the great guys that were there training.
He should do the same! If he wants to get better, he should go to his cousins academy and train there because that is where the champions are. They can claim they are good, once they can finish those guys. If you cannot finish them, if you cannot dominate them, if you cannot sweep them, if you cannot mount, you cannot show your superiority on the mat, just keep your mouth shut. You’ll look better. You won’t force me to go out of my way, to be talking the truth here.
The FightWorks Podcast: Renzo, you mentioned a story, one of the times when all the guys at Rolls academy down there, went to another academy, who gave problems, I think to Charles Gracie?
Renzo Gracie: Yes, yes, it was a guy from luta livre. We went there, and that’s how all of the fights between luta livre and jiu jitsu started. We had a fight on the street hours from that fight. Rillion, my cousin Rillion, who teaches in Florida, went down and fought the national champion in taekwondo, the luta livre guy. So, he beat the crap out of the guy on the street, and then this guy sneak from behind my brother Charles and knock him out, on the street. So, we went to his academy, and we beat the crap out of everybody there. That’s how everything started.
So, my friend, they force me to one day do a visit, because I will do it. I will grab two or three of my cousins here, and come over, to see who the real jiu jitsu is. So stop talking nonsense, stop selling your fish with doubts, stepping on people’s heads. You want to sell your fish, that actually isn’t fresh: it is fish that has been dead in a boat for over a month! Just because you keep it nice, don’t come and claim that our fish is bad. Our fish, we pick it up in the morning and sell at lunch time, that’s how the market works.
So don’t force me one day to do a visit, because I will do it. Right now, I’ve been training a lot, and I want to fight again. If along the way I need to do a visit, I will do it! I’ll bring the class with me, exactly like they liked to do it in the old times. I know exactly what is going to happen, when I get there, they will tell me “where do you think you are? You’re in America, I will call the police! You don’t belong here!” I do believe that is going to be the reaction. They don’t even have the balls to back it up, I don’t believe they have it. I know what I’m talking about, my friend, believe it.
I’ve seen everything, and anybody who needs to put the others down to look better, this is nothing but cowardice. I don’t put people down. I do admire them, I admire their work, I want them to succeed, but don’t come and claim that I’m behind in line, in any situation. That my team, the Barra Gracie, doesn’t have quality jiu jitsu. This is nonsense. That is the school that I helped to form, and that is the school that I’m willing to stand and defend any time.
I know that the quality of champions that come from that battlefield. I’ve been there to see it, and every time I have a chance, I go back there. Not only to teach, but to learn, because the people that are there are all great.
The FightWorks Podcast: Renzo, you talked a little about preparing to fight again. Can you tell our listeners a little about that?
Renzo Gracie: Yes my friend, I had a great meeting with Dana White, and the Fertitta brothers. They invite me to be part of the UFC. What can I say? How can I say no? I was two and a half years doing nothing but being lazy and eating chocolate, watching TV and watching the unbelievable fights that they put up, and I say, “this is it, it’s time to go back and have some with these young guns.”
So here I am. I will probably be back in action, I hope, at the beginning of next year. I know the invitation still stands, and my gut is already gone, I’m in good shape, so it’s time to battle.
The FightWorks Podcast: I know all of our listeners, because we are all jiu jitsu guys, listening right now, all over the world…our audience is called the Mighty 600,000. There’s not 600,000, but that’s the name.
Renzo Gracie: My brother, to be honest, with all the jiu jitsu guys here today, I do believe you have six million, my friend. [laughs]
The FightWorks Podcast: They are all going to be watching and pulling for you Renzo, so we wish you good luck with that. Anything else you want to tell our audience, before I let you go?
Renzo Gracie: My brother, thanks for this little space that you gave me, thanks for your friendship, and thanks for the giving the opportunity to express all my feelings. All you guys who train jiu jitsu, it is an honour to be fighting there for you guys. For every man who sweats and bleeds under the jiu jitsu flag, you know? This sport is not mine, it’s ours. So its a great pleasure to be representing us in there.
The FightWorks Podcast: Excellent. Thank you very much, Renzo!
Renzo Gracie: Thank you my brother, all the best my friend.
BJJ Poll: Are You Satisfied with the Progress You Have Made in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in 2009?
November 28, 2009
Hey it’s nearing the end of the year and it’s time to take stock of how far we’ve come. Most people train 3 times per week, which is a lot of time to invest in anything! (I do not know how many times per week religious people go to church on average, but I am guessing it’s less than 3 times!)
So what do you think? As this year draws to a close, how do you feel about the time you’ve put in? Are you better than when you started? Did you meet your training goals?
Vote in this week’s poll, let us know in the comments below, and feel free to leave us a message on the FightWorks Podcast message line 877-247-4662!
Kyra Gracie Offers All-Women BJJ Camp in Rio
November 28, 2009
Kyra Gracie at the 2009 BJJ Pan-Am Championships.
Kyra Gracie is offering a ten day Brazilian jiu-jitsu training camp in Rio de Janeiro from February 24th to March 3rd, 2010. This is the first time Kyra is offering a training opportunity of this sort, and it is only open to women over the age of 16. There is only room for ten students so if you are interested you had better move fast.
Kyra is of course, a multiple time world champion in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and well, Kyra Gracie. We expect some of the female members of the Mighty 600,000 to attend this camp and bring back a full report!
Kyra has asked that anyone who would like to make arrangements to attend her training camp simply contact her at graciekyra@gmail.com. To confirm I’m not just making this stuff up, check out Kyra’s site.
Relson Gracie's Comments on Our Last Show
November 26, 2009
Relson Gracie at the 2009 BJJ World Championship.
On our most recent episode of The FightWorks Podcast, we had the rare opportunity to sit down with Relson Gracie, the second son of Helio Gracie. I always get a kick out of the conversations we have on our show about the old days of jiu-jitsu in Rio and the early days of the Gracie family, so I spent some time transcribing Relson’s comments below.
If you know Relson, you know that he speaks his own special variant of English and that transcribing this was not easy! So suffice to say, what is below is not word-for-word. But I believe I’ve maintained the meaning of Relson’s words. If you’d like to hear the original interview, I invite you to head over to episode #189 of our humble BJJ internet radio show and download the mp3 file there.
TRANSCRIPTION OF RELSON GRACIE CONVERSATION
Caleb: Relson, a lot has happened this year in jiu-jitsu. I think the biggest event in the very long history of Brazilian jiu-jitsu was that your father passed away in January. You want to talk about that?
Relson: Yes, firstly I am always going to be honored and blessed to be Helio Gracie’s son. Secondly, Helio Gracie changed the world. He was physically small. Carlos Gracie was his mentor in Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Carlos taught class until he was 25, 27 or 29 years old. He was the instructor in the academy. But at 30 years old, this changed. Helio Gracie took over. Helio Gracie was the one who most developed and changed Gracie jiu-jitsu and made it effective the way it is. Then Carlos stepped to the side to be the mentor of the family, because Helio Gracie couldn’t get to the point that he was technically speaking without a mentor like Carlos. Both brothers worked together. That’s the way the Gracie clan, the Gracie family was: with the diet from Carlos, and the jiu-jitsu from Helio. Helio’s the one who made all the champions. Carlson, Robson, Reyson… all these guys compete in the family. Rolls, myself, Rorion, all these people grew up under Helio Gracie on the mats. Carlos Gracie Junior moved to my house to learn jiu-jitsu with Helio Gracie. Carlos never gave any classes to Carlos Gracie Junior. I don’t remember Carlos in a gi teaching us. Carlos was the mentor, the doctor. He was the one who told us the day we should fight. He was like a guru of the family. I totally respect him and I think both worked together but in different jobs. Carlos was the mentor and the doctor, and Helio was the instructor and the master in jiu-jitsu. Helio’s the one who built the Gracie clan: Rolls, me, all the tough guys in the family, Rickson… All these guys were undefeated and it was beautiful the way we were raised under Helio. Helio Gracie was the most technical in jiu-jitsu. He’s dead, but everything I do, everything I learned I owe to one instructor: Helio Gracie. Rolls followed Helio’s system and helped me train. Rolls made me train a lot of judo competition and was a good example for me. But Rolls came from Helio Gracie too. Pure Helio Gracie jiu-jitsu. Rolls didn’t take one class with Carlos Gracie. Carlos Gracie never taught jiu-jitsu to us. That is true. Carlos Gracie was the mentor like I said. He always helped in the process of the diet and made Helio Gracie who Helio Gracie was. But jiu-jitsu was built and developed 100% by Helio Gracie. Today it’s still the best jiu-jitsu in the world. I think there is nothing better than growing up with having Helio Gracie as your instructor and master. I never change anything that he taught me. I only try to develop something around what he did. He’s the one who created it. I don’t have to change his jiu-jitsu. I only try to adjust the positions he told us. But I repeat a lot the science that Helio Gracie taught us. I see results of that today. My son is brought up in the same way. He’s still young in competition but he’s going to prove Helio Gracie has the best jiu-jitsu. Nothing’s going to change. Everybody thinks that Helio Gracie passed away, but Helio Gracie is the one who 100% built us and it was Helio Gracie who made my jiu-jitsu strong. There is nothing to change about that. Nobody can disagree with this. Carlos Gracie was the mentor, and Helio Gracie was the instructor of the Gracie family. I hold him in the highest standing. Helio Gracie is never going to die for us. His jiu-jitsu is never going to die. His jiu-jitsu is here, simple and effective.
Caleb: We were talking last night about Roger Gracie. Can you tell the family out there what you said?
Relson: Helio Gracie was Rolls Gracie’s instructor, directly. Rolls was Carlos’ son but was adopted by my daddy. Helio adopted Rolls like when he was one month old. When I was born, Rolls was already in our home. He was my older brother. He was always my older brother. Rolls taught me a lot. During this process when my daddy taught us, we were concerned with his methods. Rolls was an incredible competitor. He was an example as a person and motivated fighters, pushing us to compete – the whole clan: the older brothers like us in the third generation, those in the second generation like Carlson. Rolls was part of the third generation. Rolls always motivated us to compete, and made us follow that path.
Caleb: …and so, Roger?
Relson: Like you guys know Roger is Mauricio [Motta Gomes'] son. Maurcio was Rolls’ best instructor. When Rolls died, Mauricio, as Rolls’ disciple, kept the same ideas that Rolls passed to him. Mauricio passed those to his son. Roger I think is the only one in Gracie Barra that uses Mauricio’s jiu-jitsu. Because I think Mauricio has been Roger’s instructor. That’s what I can see and I can feel. I think I am 100% right about that. Roger grew up with Mauricio’s ways, and that is Rolls’ way. Rolls’ way was closed guard, and that’s what Roger is doing. In all those tournaments he closes the guard. And I don’t see many guys in Gracie Barra doing this style. Roger’s the only one. Roger is the only one that keeps the Gracie style. He closes the guard, attacks the neck, sweeps, gets a good mount, and he submits everybody from the mounted position. You don’t see many Gracie Barra guys doing that. Only Roger. Because he comes from the old generation of Rolls’ students. The closed guard – that’s what Mauricao, his daddy, passed to his son. The guys interviewed me before the Worlds and asked me who was going to win, and who was going to be the open champion. I responded right away that Roger was going to be the champion because he’s the only one who plays closed guard and uses the pure Gracie jiu-jitsu. Helio Gracie never taught us butterfly guard, spider guard, x-guard, any guard that had a name. He never used them.
Caleb: There was just one guard!
Relson: He never opened his guard! Helio Gracie never uncrossed the legs. He told everybody to keep the legs crossed. He trained a lot of chokes from the guard. Armlocks, guillotines, omoplatas, anything that could be done in the guard. The guard is the position where you have the most options for submissions. In the guard, I have 25 or 30 ways to submit people. That’s the position that gives the most chances for submission. People don’t know this. I love playing the guard because I can see how much defense the opponent has. And I have a lot of ways to submit. If he’s not sharp in defense, he’s going to get caught. That’s what Roger is doing. Roger’s the only one I see in Gracie Barra that is following Rolls’ style. I don’t approve of butterfly guard, x guard, all these kinds of guard – I don’t use them. I have ways to neutralize this. So Helio Gracie taught us the way to neutralize these open guards, these butterfly guards. Helio said, “I’m never going to use butterfly guard, spider guard, I don’t hold the sleeves”. That’s not Helio Gracie’s style. That’s not Roger’s style. And so the example is there. Roger is the one that most practices Gracie jiu-jitsu in competition today.
Dan: I think it’s interesting saying that Roger’s original jiu-jitsu came from Mauricio, his dad, and not from Carlos Gracie Junior.
Caleb: It makes sense!
Dan: That’s an interesting point, because style wise, when you compare Roger’s style with a lot of the other famous Gracie Barra competitors like Romulo Barral, Victor and Braulio Estima, they have radically different games and styles versus Roger even though Braulio has the similar physique – long and tall.
Caleb: One of the comparisons that is often made with Roger: many people say, “You know who has a similar, very simplistic game like Roger’s? Kron Gracie.”
Relson: Yes, that’s the same style. You’re seeing the original jiu-jitsu from Helio Gracie. It’s from Rolls. I keep the same style. All my students are doing the same. And the result is incredible.
Dan: You mean you’re not going to help me with upside down guard?
Relson: [laughs] You have ways to neutralize that. I am not impressed with these things. The flying to pass the guard, jumping stuff. That’s not my game. That’s not Helio Gracie jiu-jitsu. I have ways to neutralize this fancy, flying jiu-jitsu. It’s not Helio Gracie jiu-jitsu for sure.
…
Caleb: One of the things you mentioned Relson is something that I don’t think many people know: you and Rolls have the same birthday.
Relson: Yes, Rolls and I were born on the same day on the 28th of March. I learned a lot with Rolls. Rolls was my brother. Anything I liked (the same color, the same food, the same toy), we fought over it. Rolls and I had the same tastes. Because we were born on the same day, our characteristics were pretty much the same. The same blood. Rolls was a tough man. He’s the one who taught me a lot, helped me a lot. I had a disagreement with Rolls when I was eleven and Rolls gave me a beating. He was thirteen. That’s the only time I remember taking a beating. It was really serious. He punched me because we had a disagrement. I went five years without talking to Rolls. I was so upset about that beating. He thought it was right, but I didn’t think it was right. But anyway I got a beating and I learned from that.
Caleb: How old were you then?
Relson: I was eleven. No I think like twelve, and he was fourteen. He locked me in the bathroom and then I got a good beating. The family broke the bathroom door. I was upset and ran out. Then I did a bad thing. I tried to pull a knife on him. Then I was locked in my room for a month because I pulled a knife on my brother. But I remember this beating and I learned from that. Because I didn’t talk to Rolls for like 5 years of my life. From thirteen to eighteen he was the guy I hated most after this beating because I still had a young mentality. It was hard to swallow. I really got a beating. Then after that I didn’t talk to Rolls for five years. But after 18 years old I forgot about it. I totally forgave him. And then Rolls was my best friend. The most incredible brother. I wish you guys could’ve seen Rolls compete because he was incredible. He was a motivator, and incredible instructor, an incredible fighter. He was strict about his diet. He never took any kind of steroids. He always fought open division like me. If Rolls were alive today, his life would be totally devoted to jiu-jitsu. I miss him a lot. But God knows what to do, and life changes. Rolls was a good man, a good fighter, and a great brother. I had the opportunity to live all my life with Rolls. He was a great man. I recommend anything that comes from him. Look at all the champions Rolls made! All the good instructors he made. Good students, good black belts like Fabio Santos, Roger’s daddy Mauricao, Alvaro Romano from Ginastica Natural, Romero “Jacare” Cavalcanti. You guys know all this jiu-jitsu comes from the Gracie family. So everybody has a link with the Gracie family. Alliance, all these guys fight the Gracie family on the mats but all those guys come from us.
Dan: Relson, Rolls was a big motivator for you and your game wasn’t he? Didn’t he have a lot of influence on your game?
Relson: One hundred percent. Rolls was my older brother. He was two years older than me. Rolls was the one who introduced me to judo and started making me throw people on the ground. Rolls called me and asked if I wanted to train together. I would come from my school on Isla do Governador but on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays I would go to Rolls’ school in the morning. The results were incredible. Rolls always pushed us to the edge. He made us train and compete hard. I miss him a lot. I had a lot in common with him. We had the same birthday. When you have the same birthday, we liked the same thing. Our tempers were the same. We are very similar. I miss him a lot. His cake was always next to mine when we had birthdays. I miss his cake being there. But I continue, and Rolls watches us from there, like my daddy. I am very happy and proud to have this family and of how much they taught me. So I conserve the pure Gracie jiu-jitsu. Helio Gracie jiu-jitsu. That’s how I am, how Rorion is, and Rickson. We’re the older brothers. The ones who keep the Gracie name at top of the line for years and years and years.
Rolls Gracie disciple Fabio Santos hangs up photos of Rolls at his San Diego academy.
Copyright in the World of Online BJJ Content
November 25, 2009
Oh the predicaments we find ourselves in! “Megaton” Dias versus Cobrinha (top) at the 2009 BJJ Mundials.
Isn’t life crazy? Just recently an article was borrowed from our site by GracieBarra.com. The article was a Tournament Review Tuesday piece written by Seymour of the UK BJJ blog Meerkatsu. I don’t mind that GracieBarra.com used the piece, but when they did they removed the part that gave Seymour credit for writing it. The full story on that was written up today and can be found here.
So what got me to sit down and open with that story? Just today I came back from doing a little cardio at the gym (knee’s still not cleared to train BJJ again until March) and on my phone I get an email notifying me of a comment left on one of the pieces published here on thefightworkspodcast.com, which was simply a link that said:
http://www.global-training-report.com/rouge_sites.htm
It appears that the content in our piece originated on a site called the Global Training Report. The irony!
The idea that this was a possibility was not new. A comment posted on that same piece back in June of this year suggested that that was the case. But as I wrote in a subsequent comment, the list of BJJ vocabulary made its way to me on a piece of paper handed to me by way of one of my instructors. It was simply two columns of words – one column of Portuguese and another in English – and looked as if it had been written on a typewriter. My response to that commenter was, “The first place I found the list was on a piece of paper at my instructor’s jiu-jitsu academy. If it does indeed come from somewhere else, please send me a link and I’ll be happy to provide attribution.” That was in June.
So like I said, today there’s a comment on the article from someone named John and the only thing in the comment is a link where The FightWorks Podcast appears as a Rouge Site (sic). So I began writing a response to the email address associated with the comment but then I figured I might as well write about it here too. Why not? Nothing to hide here at FightWorks Podcast headquarters.
So John: please let me know what you’d like me to do. I did not know that the content came from your site. I am happy to provide a link to your original report, or even take down the page completely. Whatever you would like. In any case I apologize for the misunderstanding. All the best,
- Caleb
#189 Marcelo Garcia and Relson Gracie
November 22, 2009
Marcelo Garcia at the 2009 BJJ World Championship.
This week’s episode of The FightWorks Podcast is very unique. To start, we are very fortunate to bring you an interview with one of Brazilian jiu-jitsu’s favorite personalities and most successful competitors, Marcelo Garcia. Garcia, a world champion in International Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Federation competition as well as the Abu Dhabi Combat Club, recently has made some big changes. Not only has he returned to New York City, where he’s opened a new school, but he has begun offering BJJ instruction online at MGinAction.com with assistance from Josh Waitzkin, a brown belt in BJJ under Garcia and a decorated chess player on the global level. I have wanted to bring Garcia on our show for a very long time so I am especially grateful to FightWorks Podcast contributor Christian Simamora for bringing us this interview.
Secondly and no less exciting is a conversation with Relson Gracie! Relson is the second son of Helio Gracie and a red and black belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Undefeated for 22 years in Brazil, Relson earned the nickname “Campeao”. These days Relson has a large association of jiu-jitsu schools and devotes his time to teaching his father’s jiu-jitsu to others. Conversations with Relson are always lively so try to keep up!
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Relson Gracie and cohost Dan.
BJJ Poll: To What Extent Does Your Spouse, Boyfriend, Girlfriend, Significant Other Support Your BJJ Training?
November 21, 2009
As usual, this week’s poll comes directly from a suggestion we received from a member of the Mighty 600,000, Jon in North Carolina. Jon wonders what the attitude is among the significant others of BJJ folks regarding our training obsessions. A while back we had a revealing episode about how some wives and girlfriends feel about their Brazilian jiu-jitsu guys’ training, but I think this is a good way to measure the pulse of the community instead of a handful of ladies who I was able to bring together for that show.
So grab that special someone in your life and do like Elwood Blues says: “Love him, please him, squeeze her, please her, hold her; Squeeze and please that person, give ‘em all your love”. And then get back to training!
Jon, thanks for the poll idea and thanks again for coming out to the 2009 Pre-Mundials Coffee!
South American Jiu-Jitsu Championship Online This Weekend
November 19, 2009
I don’t know what we did to deserve this, Mighty 600,000, but 2009 has been a banner year for us. First, we had the 2009 Abu Dhabis streamed live so we could watch the planet’s best submission grappling on our computers as it took place in Barcelona. A couple of weeks ago we saw the 2009 No Gi World Championships streamed live for free!
Well now SulTatame is saying that beginning at 10AM on this coming Sunday November 22 the 2009 South American Jiu-Jitsu Championship will be available free on their website available this Sunday!
The South American Championships are taking place in Santa Catarina, Brazil. Where is Santa Catarina? Most of us, including myself, have never really heard of Santa Catarina. It turns out that by car Santa Catarina is just over eight hours south of Sao Paulo. It’s also thirteen and a half hours from Rio de Janeiro! Whoa!
I’m guessing that because of its location, the distance to the major BJJ hubs in Brazil is going to preclude some of the competitors we like to watch from putting this event on their calendar. I checked the brackets over on the CBJJ website (that’s the Brazilian arm of the International Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Federation) and I do not recognize many names in the male adult black belt division except for Mario Reis and Bruno Frazatto (both are very tough guys who are a blast to watch at the Mundials).
But let’s not forget what is happening here: if the Sul Tatame website is to be believed (and because they’re new to me at least, I have no reason to doubt them), we have the pleasure of watching very high end BJJ direct from Brazil – live online for free. That is a first, as far as I know. So if you don’t have plans on Sunday (other than listening to our new show 
) I recommend tuning in to the broadcast.
Are we getting spoiled? Will this sort of thing not be news soon? Are we just going to expect that the big events are streamed online for free?
I sure hope so.
Tournament Review Tuesday: NAGA North American Grappling Championship
November 17, 2009
by Frank Garrett
I had decided to compete in the NAGA North American Grappling Championships in Newark, NJ, along with two of my teammates. I had packed food, water, my video camera, and a pillow. I felt reasonably prepared, despite having slept poorly the night before. The women’s no-gi was scheduled to begin at 10:30, and we had about a two and a half hour ride to get up there, forcing me to wake up far earlier than I would like to on a Saturday.
We met at our academy, and began the trek up the NJ turnpike, making good time despite the poor weather. We arrived at the venue at about 10:00 in the morning, to find convenient parking near the gymnasium. Although I hadn’t pre-registered I only had a brief wait in line to get signed in. Also people who registered at the door paid the same as those who pre-registered, which was nice for me. Weigh-ins were equally smooth, although I could see a longer line begin to form behind me. We had missed the rules meeting, and some matches had already begun, which surprised me. The event seemed to start more or less on time.
The venue was probably the largest I had been to for a grappling competition. There were 12 rings that were in use the entire time we were there. Scoreboards were electronic and easy to read. The PA system was loud and clear. There were the typical vendors and concessions.
According to the announcer there were about 1,200 registered competitors, and the high volume did seem to bog down the progress of the divisions somewhat. In particular the one ring devoted to the lady’s divisions seemed to be going slowly. NAGA did seem to be doing their best to keep things running as scheduled, deducting two points from you if they had to call your name over the loudspeaker. They also made a point of keeping coaches a safe distance to the side of the mat, a pet peeve of mine.
I wasn’t crazy about the strange rules that NAGA uses for no-gi, but I don’t do no-gi so it wasn’t an issue for me. I do thing that allowing leg locks in beginner’s divisions is inadvisable however. The only rule issue I had personally was that blue belt matches were only five minutes long, and I had trained for six. Others in my division were not so fortunate however. There appeared to be some heated debates as to what constituted “reaping the knee”. The ref in my ring (ring 2), did a good job explaining his decisions in a calm manner, and even used a spectator’s video to replay and review his decision. One competitor who went for a straight ankle lock let his foot cross the line of the hip and was immediately disqualified. Overall I was very impressed with my ref. He appeared attentive and calm the entire time.
It was a long and grueling day, but overall this NAGA was run much more smoothly than any tournament of this size I have been to. The large number of rings, professionalism of the staff, and the fact that they split the kids and teens division into a separate day allowed us to get on our way by about 6:30. I think all tournaments should move the kids and teens to a separate day. Hopefully this trend of quality tournaments will continue.
Frank Garrett is a blue belt currently training at Maxercise in beautiful Philadelphia, PA.
This is an installment in our Tournament Review Tuesdays column, where FightWorks Podcast listeners submit reports about Brazilian jiu-jitsu and grappling competitions that happened the weekend prior. The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of The FightWorks Podcast. Through the rest of 2009, if you submit a Tournament Review Tuesday piece, you might win an Isami gi!
- Caleb
Tournament Review Tuesday: The UK's Kent BJJ Open 2009
November 17, 2009
Dominique Vitry (bottom) fends off judo olympian Samantha Lowe in the womens blue belt absolute.
by Seymour Yang
The very first Kent BJJ Open in 2008 was a roaring success. Competitors and spectators spoke highly of last year’s tournament – so anticipation for this year’s event was sky high. And the organisors did not disappoint. One week before the actual event, competitor names and divisions were already posted on the internet, and three days prior, all fight times and mat placements were already announced. With just under 400 competitors attending, it was a superb testament to the level of organisation that went on behind the scenes.
The Kent BJJ Open was originated by the UK’s Carlson Gracie BJJ Revolution Team. The organisors were keen to establish the event as a competition created by fighters, for fighters. Simon Hayes, one of the organisors, told me that he felt some competitions in the UK were poorly run and his team wanted to give a good example to the outside world, and to BJJ participants, of how to run a tournament professionally, and he credited co-instructor Dickie Martin as the ‘brains’ behind the event.
The event was divided over two days (Saturday for white belts, Sunday for all other belts). Considering the extra financial burden that two-days worth of hall hire would encompass, entry fees were kept as low as possible and the weekend spread meant everything ran on time and finished at a decent hour.
More importantly, the organisors felt that everyone should be allowed to have at least two fights on the day, hence the introduction of the repechage system to win bronze. In a system borrowed from judo tournaments, the BJJ reperchage was trialled last year to much acclaim – all non-finalists in their division were able to fight for the bronze medal, adding genuine value to a podium placement.
The Dartford judo club is an Olympic standard judo training facility designed to host the 2012 British Olympic judo team. It was an honour to compete within this up-to-date sports stadium. The facilities are of international standard and for a few hours, everyone felt like they were Olympic superstars.
Saturday hosted all the white belt matches. I did not attend this day so can only comment that with around 200 participants, it was clearly a popular tournament for first-timers and more experienced novices alike. Sometimes tournaments can seem an intimidating experience for newcomers to the sport, and a day just for white belts is a nice touch.
The following day hosted all the coloured belt matches. It was a packed schedule with four mats in constant action. The table staff, ushers, referees and all the team who had roles to play running the event, did their job brilliantly. There was no ‘dead’ time as one fight ended, another began immediately. The tight time-table meant that if you missed your call-out, you got dq’ed. The PA announcements was loud and very clear.
Of course a good stadium is nothing without some good fights, and the competitors who attended this weekend did not disappoint. I saw some fantastic tussles from the super feathers all the way to the heavy brown belts. It seems the combatants were inspired by the surroundings and by the huge Carlson Gracie fighting ethic (whether you were a Carlson team member or not!).
If I had to pick one division that generated a lot of attention, I would say the womens blue absolute was interesting to watch. Notably for the inclusion of British judo gold medallist Samantha Lowe. Standing head a shoulders above all the other ladies, the Carlson Gracie BJJ fighter used solid, basic jiu-jitsu to nullify her opponents to win gold in her weight and in the absolute.
A shout out should also go to the mens blue under 76kg division as I witnessed some oustandingly athletic and technically adept matches, especially the young Ross Nicholls, representing Pedro Bessa BJJ, who won this division.
After its second successful year in existence, the Kent Open has firmly established itself as one of the major ‘must-do’ tournaments in the UK. Judging from the post-tournament buzz and chatter, participants, myself included, are eagerly anticipating next year’s event.
Seymour Yang trains at the Mill Hill Combat and Conditioning Academy, part of the Roger Gracie Academy network and writes the Meekatsu BJJ blog. He won a gold medal at the Kent BJJ Open this year.
This is an installment in our Tournament Review Tuesdays column, where FightWorks Podcast listeners submit reports about Brazilian jiu-jitsu and grappling competitions that happened the weekend prior. The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of The FightWorks Podcast. Through the rest of 2009, if you submit a Tournament Review Tuesday piece, you might win an Isami gi!
- Caleb
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